Navigating the Military to Civilian Career Shift with Cheryl Cross | Ep #160

In this episode of the Second Act Success Career Podcast, host Shannon Russell sits down with Cheryl Cross, an expert in military to civilian career transitions and author of Civilian Mission: The Three-Year Guide for Military Professionals Planning Civilian Careers. Cheryl shares her journey from a professional broadcaster to a workforce development councilwoman in Hawaii, and how she’s helping military veterans navigate the complexities of transitioning to civilian life. Discover actionable strategies for career change, the importance of starting your transition early, and how to leverage your military skills in the civilian job market. Whether you're a veteran or someone supporting a veteran through their career shift, this episode is packed with insights to help you achieve a successful second act. Tune in to learn how to master your military to civilian career transition and start your new chapter with confidence.

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Connect with Cheryl Cross
Website/Podcast - https://www.xchangepodcast.com/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/cherylcross/
Book - https://www.xchangepodcast.com/book/

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Transcript

Second Act Success Career Podcast
Season 1 - Navigating the Military to Civilian Career Shift with Cheryl Cross | Ep #160 
Episode - #160
Host: Shannon Russell
Guest: Cheryl Cross
Transcription (*created by Descript and may not be perfectly accurate)

[00:00:00] Speaker: Are you ready to quit your nine to five job and start a business of your own? Well, you're in the right place, my friend. Welcome to the second act success career podcast. I am your host, Shannon Russell. I am a former television producer turned business owner, career transition coach, and boy mom. My mission is to help you produce your best life.

This podcast will teach you how to get from where you are now to where you want to be and how to build a business that fits your life and lights you up. Let's get started.

Hello everyone. I am Shannon. Welcome back to the show. 

On this episode, we will be talking with Cheryl Cross. Cheryl is a renowned voice. And now author in the world of military to civilian career transitions. Cheryl began her career working in radio and eventually pivoted to working in HR and recruiting.

She is now a workforce development council woman for the state of [00:01:00] Hawaii. She is an advocate for effective transition strategies, earning recognition. And helping military veterans. Transition to life after service. 

Cheryl is doing so much good in the world and bringing to light so many issues that affect military veterans and their spouses.

I am so honored to call her friend and. have her here today to share her second act success story and all of the good that she's putting into the world. With her podcast. Her book and all of her work. This is Cheryl Cross.

[00:01:33] Shannon Russell: Cheryl Cross, welcome to the show. I'm so 

[00:01:35] Cheryl Cross: excited to have you here. It's such an honor to be here, Shannon. Thank you. Having you on my podcast and now being able to be on yours. it's quite the, it's quite the honor.

[00:01:46] Shannon Russell: Yeah, it was so lovely to chat with you on yours. I absolutely loved it. And I can't wait to dive into your show, your books, everything. But let's start with where your career journey began. 

[00:01:57] Cheryl Cross: Certainly. I started as a professional [00:02:00] broadcaster and I abandoned that career to go deeper into the business side of broadcasting through the music industry.

David Geffen had an opportunity in his promotion department. I had Already become a music director for the radio station I was at. So I saw this as a perfect parallel taking and leveraging, which I know is a big word for you, leveraging all of my skills to move in a new direction. As a kid, I had fallen in love with Los Angeles.

My stepmother was from California. we would visit from my hometown of Las Vegas and go and visit her family. And I made oath to myself and I made a promise that I would make it there one day and I did. So at the tender age of 22, I moved to Los Angeles and I stayed there for 27 years.

I didn't continue on in the music industry. I went more independent businesswoman. I started my own consulting firm. I used all my marketing, promotion. Broadcasting communications and I [00:03:00] had learned recruiting. So I'd put this all together and I really just kind of went in my own direction. I was a competitive intelligence analyst.

I had learned recruiting. So I got to work from home. My family structure changed. So I was the sole income earner for my son. So this gave me an opportunity to be one of the first work from home folks. I fell in love with recruiting, which I don't know how many recruiters you've ever met, but usually they don't wake up in the morning and go, you know, for a career, I think I'll be a recruiter.

No, you usually find recruiting through HR or some other avenue, but recruiting really led me to where I am today. And that is as an author and a podcast host and my subject matter is military. folks getting out of the military and coming into the job force. , and I know you have a lot of questions for that.

So that's a very short explanation of how I got from A to Z. Or maybe I'm not at Z yet. think I'm in the middle of the alphabet. I have a few more [00:04:00] turns to make. 

[00:04:00] Shannon Russell: You do. We both have a broadcasting background and a Los Angeles background, which is great. But I think it's interesting that you went from broadcasting, working with David Geffen to your own consulting firm and that you really gravitated to recruiting.

What was it about recruiting that made you want to take that kind of direction with your consulting business? 

[00:04:23] Cheryl Cross: When new tech emerged through the internet, I jumped on it full force. I was fascinated. In fact, I actually married the man who introduced me to the internet. we had a son, he's still working in the industry and I'm not, but I had that portal and every night I would go on and in fact, still a family joke.

We would, cut a joke that I would, he'd go to sleep and I'd get up and get on the internet. That's early days internet back when there wasn't a lot of information on there. my father in law of all people said, Hey, there's an opportunity at this place that I'm at, they have researchers. You're really good at [00:05:00] research.

This opened the door for me to go into what is really competitive intelligence. Competitive intelligence is something I did for years so when the internet got very popular and people thought they really didn't need to hire those competitive intelligence people, they mostly sat at universities, helping researchers, helping the academia departments in the financial sectors, capital markets where I was, there wasn't a need much anymore.

The analysts were learning how to do it. So the competitive intelligence people sort of dwindled away for a minute. Now, the upside to that was there was so much garbage on the internet, they had to bring them back. But by then, I had already fallen in love with recruiting. I was brought into a recruiting firm to teach sourcing.

And sourcing is the very beginning of recruiting. It's when you go and find candidates. And my job was to come in and teach them how to do it ethically and not call and say, Hi, I have a delivery of flowers. Can you give me like lie, all those [00:06:00] terrible things. So I was able to do that when I saw what the recruiters were doing.

It really intrigued me. And I also have to be honest with you, they were getting paid twice as much as the researchers. It gave me an opportunity to go home, work from home, make more money, learn a new skill on the job training, right? So I took it and I just did that in perfect timing too, because like I said, my family structure changed.

I became the sole income earner. I lived in Hermosa Beach, California, four blocks from the beach. I was not moving in Lent. I was not moving and taking my son out of his schools. I wanted to walk to his baseball games, which I did. I wanted to attend all the rock climbing things that I could and have the freedom and the flexibility and recruiting gave that to me.

So I'm grateful for it. I will always honor recruiters, especially ones who work from home and the flexibility it gives you is tremendous. 

[00:06:59] Shannon Russell: Mm-Hmm. [00:07:00] andI don't even think I've ever discussed this on the podcast, but I did recruiting for maybe three months and it was a, oh yeah. I actually went to this creative recruiting agency as a producer looking to kind of get into corporate producing.

And they said, well, we really like you. Will you come and be a recruiter? And I learned the business and I started doing it. So everything you're saying with the sourcing, I like. I remember all of this so much and then I got a really too good to be true producing job and I jumped ship. But I love the idea of just getting to know people, figuring out their problems, getting to know the clients, their problems, and then finding that happy marriage, which is gratifying.

I'm sure you really enjoy doing that and building people's careers. 

[00:07:44] Cheryl Cross: You'll talk to recruiters and they'll say this. I believe it too. It's like putting a puzzle together. So when you get higher up in the ranks of recruiting is, and I'm a growth strategist, I'm a fractional HR professional consultant.

I help build, You know, [00:08:00] staffing campaigns, I help build niche recruiting campaigns. I really liked those hard to find people. When I worked with the department of defense through a management consulting firm, boy, did I get those hard to fill jobs, the highest level clearances, these people were hiding under rocks, 

we were working with the three letter agencies and I'll let you guess who those were, but those really high cleared folks. what I also learned is. And in recruiting, you know, this, once you find a niche and you become really good at it, you know, where to look. And you also develop a bit of a database or a trusted circle.

And that's exactly what I did within the military community. I came at this thinking, I know a lot because I've interviewed a lot of you. And I've seen a lot of the same things happening over and over again. I think I can help. So with that mission, my own mission. To create Civilian Mission, which was my book.

And then the Military to Civilian Career Transition [00:09:00] Power Hour. It's been gangbusters. It's just been like wild. My wildest dreams. I mean, let me just put it out there. It does not pay the rent, but I don't care. Like, I am having so much fun and to get emails or to get notes through LinkedIn, or I even got a handwritten note to my PO box, which is in the book, thanking me from Germany.

Somebody was stationed in Germany. They had sent it, had all these stamps on it. And I thought, this is amazing. So it's gone in my scrapbook and it's part of the journey. And I get. Not just accolades, but just thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time. Recruiters aren't usually the ones that are talking unless they're talking about the jobs at their company.

They're not the ones that are out there really giving a lot of advice. That's changing. But I think that when I stepped away from my corporate job and went into this independently, it gave me a new voice and I'm having a blast. 

[00:09:56] Shannon Russell: That is just so inspiring that you found kind of your [00:10:00] niche, right?

Of these people that you want, that it's your mission to help. how did you get into kind of working with more of the military, that population? 

[00:10:10] Cheryl Cross: Well, working for a DOD, Department of Defense, management consulting firm. , that's our client. So the military was our client.

And it seemed to make sense to hire a lot of transitioning military. That they would just go back into a role that they've either done before or could do because of their awareness. So, jokingly, I think that transitioning military think they're just going to take off their uniform and put on, for here, Hawaii, an Aloha shirt and go to work.

there's so much more to it than that, but I think that, those hires are very important. working for a management consulting firm within the D. O. D. That's been around for a million years. Is kind of an, like a wink, wink, nod, nod, obvious for a lot of career folks, they'll go to their what's called a taps class Shannon.

So [00:11:00] transition assistance program, which is provided by each of the military branches. They each have a different name, but by and large, it's called taps, or if they're an officer. Which is enlisted, higher level enlisted, or commissioned. They'll go to an executive TAPS program. But really, it's a week of getting out of the military.

One week of firehose information. Drinking from the firehose on what you have to learn. And I would get there as a recruiter. I kind of noodled my way. We have all the bases here in Hawaii. And I'm like, Hey, I'm representing, you know, XYZ company and I'll bring a staff member who's been out at least a year.

So they have some good experience and I'll talk about my company and we'll have this person talk and they let us in. They let us in for their networking portion. It was hugely successful. But I saw this glazed look in their faces and I thought, well, you know, it's Friday. it's lunch.

They just had a little food in their stomach and they're a little tired. Nope. Nope. It's that [00:12:00] this was so overwhelming. So that's when I decided to write the guide, which is getting them to start this process three years in advance, which if you're in the military, You PCS every two to three years. So to think about moving to a new duty station, learning a new job, think about leaving that job.

there's homes that sometimes they're bought and sold. There's children that have to go in and out of school. Hopefully they have a significant other or a military spouse who is probably also having career issues because they're moving all the time, but a lot. So I wrote a guide because I saw a lot of the same situations.

I saw inability Shannon for them to negotiate anything salary, what they wanted to do. I see this even now with the podcast, I'll interview people who've been out two, three, four years, and they still talk. well, we did this, we did that. And as you know, as a career coach [00:13:00] and second act success, have to sell yourself.

You have to become a very big advocate for yourself and your, what you do to solve the problem of the company. So seeing this as a recruiter and being an advocate for my company, but not by and large, the whole population, I was a little hindered.

It wasn't until the governor of the state of Hawaii said to the office called and said, we'd like to nominate you for a role. Are you interested? you've been a volunteer for a while and that's where workforce development. So through workforce development and accepting a council seat. So I was nominated by the governor, which was awesome.

Confirmed by this state Senate, which was super cool. You have family fly in, you get lays in Hawaii. We give everyone lays, which is beautiful. it was magnificent and I'm, it's a volunteer position. I don't get paid, but I'm telling you, it is. Quite an honor to look at the state's unemployment and employability [00:14:00] and skilling and see how this all can work together being the fourth largest concentration of military for the US on one island.

there's eight islands, but fact that there's such a huge concentration of military that doesn't stay because of the affordability issues, because of cost of living, because of lack of jobs, I thought to myself, well, if I could just get two more percent of them to stay.

Or 10 more percent of them to stay, even if it is, it's a small state where the eighth smallest state of the US, but I can make a difference. And that's when I really went into like, okay, and how am I going to create more? You know, if they can't just listen to the podcast, they have to have something.

So that's. when the book and everything kind of came together. 

[00:14:47] Shannon Russell: so how was writing the book and what is the reception been? And how are you getting it into the hands of those who need it? 

[00:14:54] Cheryl Cross: Well, I have to tell you, LinkedIn is a blessing. And I can tell you that [00:15:00] I've done less than 200 advertising.

I took my Christmas money and I put together an ad campaign. Cause you and I, we both know how to do marketing and promotion. And I thought I'm going to sell squillions of dollars worth of books. Well, I made my money back and that was about it, but it was a really interesting journey. I find that my book is selling at a clip that it needs to.

This is a small population, Shannon. It's 200, 000 people are leaving the military every year. So if you go three years back to that, you've got a little over half a million, but not everybody is planning for their career. my book is not going to change it, but the ones that do buy it and the ones that do 

They have really engaged with me To, just say thank you. And this was so valuable. And thank you for giving me 10 exercises to work through over a period of time to do that. The book, I have to tell you, it was pretty easy to write. I had written it [00:16:00] over the course of maybe a couple of years and had ideas.

It wasn't until I started using an AI editor that I could put my thoughts together. So I'm a huge proponent of AI. I teach it to my clients in HR. I've talked professionally about AI in human resources, but for self publishing, I think it's magnificent. Now don't let it write your book. Don't, don't let it go with its ridiculous language but it really will help you condense your ideas.

And then has memory if you're training a GPT. So my chat GPT is, was brand new. It was really kind of just released and it helped me just put together a table of contents. And from there I could fill in the blanks. I hired a professional editor, a human who was an air force veteran who loved the idea.

He didn't even want me to pay him. He was wonderful. Tony Rossi. But, everybody came to the table for , this little book, this little 200 page guide that you're supposed to carry around with you [00:17:00] for three years. And it's moderately priced at 23 and 58 cents. And I didn't do any market research on that.

I just put all my favorite numbers in there, three, five, and eight. I know that's kind of stupid. I would never recommend anybody do that. But, I get, you know, Yeah, I'll, I'm surprised when I check into my KDP reports and check and see how the book is doing. Self publishing is quite the journey and I recommend anybody put a book out.

market is a bit flooded, but if you have a subject matter expertise and you have the will and the desire to do it, do it. I've grown up wanting to be an author. Yeah. And my father went to his grave. Wondering if he should have been one. So that's why the book is dedicated to my dad.

And I had also kind of pitched this idea to him. So in essence, he funded this. He funded the opportunity, his little legacy gift to all the kids. We all had to sort of [00:18:00] pitch to him what we were going to do with it. So he said to me, Cheryl, you live in Hawaii. I don't want you to buy a boat. I'm like, I really want a boat.

Okay. So I have this idea. It's unusual. And I said, podcast, he says, Oh, you're going back on the radio. I liked hearing you on the radio. and I have an idea for the book. He had served two years, only two years compulsory service. He was drafted for Korea, the Korean war. And.

Because the armistice agreement. I think that's what it's called. Was signed when he was in boot camp, the war was over. He did not have to travel to Korea. He stayed stateside, he stayed CONUS is what they call it, and, filled in his two years. But that two years changed his life. He is the generation that didn't talk about wars.

And even though, we could squeak it out of him, but he would never, bang his chest and say, I served in the army and nope, no, but had great deep respect. When he passed, we learned that he gave quite a [00:19:00] bit of money to a Wounded Warrior type project And we didn't know that until his death, but that's how quiet he was.

[00:19:09] Shannon Russell: Wow. What a dedication to him to have this out there. Oh, and especially knowing that it's helping other. Military. Yes. And I think it's once someone gets their hand on it, they can recommend it to someone else. That's where it's probably the word of mouth is spreading and it's helping.

And it's just such a great testament to all of your work and your experience to really get people. Thank you. What do you think is the number one thing that veterans find when they come out? Yes, they're not going back probably to where they were before, but is it just hard to view what they can do with the experience that they have?

Or what is the number one problem? 

[00:19:49] Cheryl Cross: I think there's about five lack of agency is probably one, realigning to what it is you love. It's probably number two, loss [00:20:00] of identity, loss of camaraderie. think that there's a grieving process for many of them when they leave, depending on how much time they served and what they experienced.

And I think there's a huge misnomer out there about you have to be in combat to suffer through some sort of post traumatic stress. High tempo, high energy environments really dedicate a lot of time and energy. And the source are people. So, to put people into those environments, they're going to come out different.

That's it. That's just human life. It happens to us, Shannon, when we were in the business. Yeah. How many of your colleagues burned out? A lot of mine did. Yeah. I think I did too. Yeah. So It's the, you know, are you going to go from being a medic to an ER doctor and keep that sort of same high level tempo engagement?

and maybe you can, maybe you eat fear for lunch. I don't know, but a lot of folks are [00:21:00] coming out and because they have such a break in between, meaning. They're not going back into the same environment. it gives them a chance to go, Whoa, I am not a physician. I can't diagnose anybody, but I hear this over and over.

One of my first guests who I love, he was SEAL team six, Steve Brown, the SEALs call him Brownie. He was my first five plus year vet on my first episode. I was terrified to interview him because I had never even met a seal in my life. Navy seals, you see them in movies. But this beautiful man who went through traumatic issues through his 20 some odd years, went on huge, world changing, history book, Wikipedia pages of information and history, and came out of it and built Camp Brown Bear USA.

org. So he took his experiences and gave back to the [00:22:00] community that was also hurting. So he has a retreat, which, funnily enough, he tried to get it to be for a boys, a boys camp. he went to the state and they said, you have goats. And you can't have goats within 500 feet of sleeping children.

And he's like, what? They said, but you can have veterans. he's like, ding. So I don't think that's how the story went, but that's how the funny story for me goes. And I thought, you know, things happen for a reason. And he hosts several retreats per year for military spouses, for veterans, for people who are military affiliated, maybe the spouse of a deceased veteran.

And this is bringing him so much joy. But he said something to me that really shook me. And I was not prepared because I hadn't heard it. So here I am. I'm a corporate recruiter. I'm asking all these questions like you. You're like, you know, never done it before, right? I was a music [00:23:00] person on the radio.

I played music and I talked between music. That was it. I didn't interview people. I don't know how to do this. Except for recruiting. So, I thought, wow, I've got this SEAL Team 6, it's a really important guy. So, what was the most important thing that you wish you would have learned? And he thought, and he's a super, super quiet guy.

And he said, I wish somebody would have told me about the night sweats. And the night terrors and I'm like, Oh my goodness, this is nothing about jobs. What do I do? And you can almost see the panic in my eye, breathe, just let this happen. You know, you asked a question, let it evolve. And my podcast is still very focused on careers, but to not admit That their mental health impact doesn't have one to do with the other would just be foolish for me.

So the more, questions I asked regarding this. The more I got back and then I started talking to mental health professionals and offering them more on the expert side to say, [00:24:00] how do you, you know, Laurel weirs was a great expert who talked about pulling back and reaffirming your trauma.

How you can do a trauma poll as a clinical therapist. That's what she does. And I was just like, it opened the door for me to go in a different direction. Now, podcast still talks about jobs and careers. It is still the military to civilian career transition power hour. But I am no longer afraid of offering people who talk about neurodiversity in the workplace, mental health, how you can access mental health resources, at least one at every other show, so that people hear it over and over.

They may not do anything, but they at least know that they can. And again, you and I've kind of worked in the same spaces. In corporate America, you should be working for a company that can help you. And if not, there's a squillion resources for veterans that are able and military families. So military [00:25:00] spouses are now in the spotlight.

Thank goodness, there's a 21 percent unemployment rate for those folks who move all over the world and have this huge stigma with employers. That's finally getting addressed. But to have the mental health aspect taken care of so that you can go to a job, And find that career because as you know, careers are supposed to be fulfilling, right?

We're supposed to be living our passion, especially in our second act, which is exactly what these folks are doing. You shouldn't just be doing a job. 

[00:25:34] Shannon Russell: Not after serving too, like you should be able to come out and truly have a path or a hand that can hold you to get you to where you want to be because you deserve it.

I mean, after all that they've given, and I love that you are able to help people in Hawaii. Find their roles and really find where they can be. And, and that your podcast really lets people listen in from all over [00:26:00] and see what opportunities are out there. And that, yeah, if that person can do it, I can do it too.

[00:26:05] Cheryl Cross: it's a global effort at this point. and this pulling podcast are really fun. And I get them both from buzzsprout and from YouTube and seeing the countries and cities where people are listening. It's one of my favorite parts of my week and it's incredible. I can't assume that everybody who's military affiliated is listening to this.

there's other reasons people might want to know a little bit more about the military. Because they have an interest in it and they want to know the experiences. I've interviewed people that are PhDs and working on social, really just the social ramifications of hiring military. So, Dr.

Matt Stanley, the Veterans Transition Research Lab or Institute, I can't remember which one, at Fuqua, which is Duke's School of Business. there are people that this is their life. They really want to know why is there such high unemployment rates? [00:27:00] Why is there disassociation between the employers and the veterans.

And there's a term I want to tell you about, which I think you'll find interesting. I learned this from Dr. Stanley and it's heroization. So You think that, treating a veteran like a hero is a great thing. Well, not always. Especially in some of the blue collar jobs, employers have been seen to put them in high risk, high danger jobs.

They tend to be underpaid well, because they're a hero, and that's a very broad brushstroke of that. I encourage people who are interested in that to go look it up and read about it because the articles are fascinating and it is again, there was my like, there is a lot of good information about, how this group of people, I mean, if you think about it, 16.

9 million people are in the workforce that have served. That's not small. And if they are being treated differently, we need to address it, right? Each state has wonderful incentives for companies to [00:28:00] hire people who have served. There's the workforce opportunity tax credit, which is up to 9, 600 in some states, if a veteran has been out of work for a certain period of time.

So if you hire them and you file for this tax credit, you get it. Eventually but the federal government understands the impact. And we always think of this, like, why are there so many homeless veterans? And I'm not educated enough to talk about that. I'm more about let's get you a job.

I know jobs save lives. I know jobs keep people off streets, but think that this is just a big, big, big issue and it's not talked enough about. I'm looking for my next subject. I think it's still going to be. Salary negotiation, because you asked me what those top five things were. Salary negotiation is a biggie.

They don't have to negotiate salary in the military. When you walk into the room, Shannon, you have rank and badges and file and all this on your, your uniform. People know your pay grade [00:29:00] and they live in a world of pay grades. So, there's never a need to negotiate a salary or you have little choice, it sounds.

I'm not sure. I've not been in the military. I'm a civilian, but from what people are telling me, there's not a lot of choice on what you get to do or where you go, you're sent and you're told. So I know that that's not as pedantic as it sounds. There are some choices, but you might not get your top pick and to live that life of where you're always being told and then be thrust into an environment.

Where you have to make all the decisions and you have to fight for a person that you barely know because you've allowed yourself to be told what to do. Now, on the flip side of that, they come out with incredible skills. They're the most flexible people I've ever met. Adaptable? Are you kidding? You can put them in any situation.

Ask them to do anything. Tell them what the end result is. Let them get there. They're amazing. And make sure that, you know, some people will [00:30:00] say no to this, but put them in a team. Make sure that you have as a company and, employee resource group of veterans and that they are supported. I even say to my clients.

That they need different onboarding. They really do need a different environment outside of the regular staff that has not served, especially if they're coming directly from the military. I think that creating those special onboarding programs is essential. 

[00:30:24] Shannon Russell: I never thought about that. And like making sure that you have someone that's in the HR department that has some experience, or at least is somewhat educated, to know how to onboard.

Right. Yep. I think that's really interesting. 

[00:30:37] Cheryl Cross: Yes. And that's a lot of the work that I'm doing as a fractional HR person and coming in and I just stood in front of a group of hotelers, people at one at five of the most beautiful hotels in Hawaii. And you'd think that because our military presence is so strong, they know all this.

There, a lot of them were born and raised here, but they didn't. And it makes me so happy to [00:31:00] think, gosh, you know, this is just information that's rattling around in my head that I hear every day from people on my podcast when I'm working in a recruiting role. Sometimes I'll hear this from the candidates.

it's in my book, but to take it to the employer side is really special. And I want more companies to really ask those questions and. You know, if it's not me, reach out to your state level workforce development, veterans group, and work with your American job centers. Each one of them has a veteran specific.

employment specialist, hopefully, depending on the size of your state. And if not, they can get you in touch, but educate yourself on the differences in this population. Even the military spouses are quite different. I interviewed, Ruthann Kramer, who wrote a beautiful book called You Belong. And she's taken quite a few career turns from her time in the military as an army.

I believe she was army officer, but she was an officer, went into clinical psychology, closed her practice, and Now works with the VA. [00:32:00] But she's what's considered dual military. She's a veteran and a military spouse. She went from being to supporting and then living that nightmare of stigma, but also going through all these career transgressions.

So she wrote a book and I cried in the first chapter. It was so, so heartwarming during our session. I didn't produce it this way, but she cried too because it is, it's just so challenging for these folks. Who are going through these big, big moves. And again, this is your specialty. And I, would encourage people if you are military affiliated to check out her book.

She just released it as of this recording, maybe a couple of months ago. It's doing very well. 

[00:32:44] Shannon Russell: Okay. Wow. How interesting. and Cheryl, you have another book that is brewing as well. Is that right? Yep. 

[00:32:51] Cheryl Cross: Yep. Unlocking your worth.

Is my tentative title. I hope to release it by November of this year. I released the last [00:33:00] one in November, which is Veterans Day, and I'm shooting for that. I'm really pulling more. it's not just Sheryl Cross writing a guide. It is really talking about how salary is, salary negotiation is very, very important.

I want to say it's like your signature. If you look up anything on salary negotiation, I don't care if you've served in the military, just generally, they'll tell you what you're doing is wrong. Rather than this is a very individual style. There is no hard and fast rules. Chris Voss is probably one of the best negotiators on the planet, but you don't need to be an FBI interrogator, negotiator, pull someone off the ledge in order to negotiate a salary.

I'd probably held off on writing the books because I think it's a very simple process of understanding what it is you want, where it is you want to be. And understanding your BATNA, which is an MBA term, your best alternative to negotiated agreement, and your walkaway point, and not making these four things a [00:34:00] struggle.

[00:34:00] Cheryl Cross: It's a conversation. It's knowing what you want. So you're walking into the conversation with confidence. And as a recruiter, I can tell you that confidence wins the conversation every day. And understanding that if this isn't a match, that you're thankful and grateful and you move on. But getting to those points, And that's why I think it deserves the book.

I've held many workshops on this, and I think that's really why this whole thing kind of brewed as I was invited to do a capstone. I had taken a certification through the Association of Talent Development, and I had to do a capstone. So I called my local base, one of them, and it's Pearl Harbor, Joint Base Pearl Harbor, Hickam, which is Air Force and Navy.

And said, Hey, I have this idea. And they're like, bring it. We'll fill the room. Since that time I've given them the class. I gave it to them. I said, hi, I'm done with this. I passed my class. You can have it. It started as salary negotiation for women. The base [00:35:00] commander called them and said, well, I'm looking this up and I, I really want to know why this is only for women.

My, my male soldiers need this too. And I'm like, Oh, he has a point. He has a point. So we just put salary negotiation 101 or something really non gender and the room was full. We had to do a second session and that was a four hour workshop. It wasn't like, hi, I'm Cheryl Cross and this is how you negotiate for salary.

It is really about figuring out what it is you want to do, where you want to live, looking into the research for that. So walking them through these scenarios with outside people and then having them work on themselves. could have gone eight hours and at the very end, and as a speaker, you may get this too.

You always have the feedback forms. Well, the feedback forms were very interesting too. You didn't tell me what to do. And I'm thinking, Oh my gosh, this is the military though. They'll walk into the room and say, what do you want me to do? I want you to do this. This is the outcome. And I [00:36:00] walked in and I said, we're going to learn.

A lot of things today. I didn't say here's the ABCDEFG way to salary negotiate. I said, you got to figure this out for yourself. So it's a journey. And I've learned to say these things differently since that time, the team that has taken over that. Glass, so to speak, has also learned to do it in a different way.

They incorporated it into their own taps training and I'm honored that they do it. but again, the book is going to be born from that. It's not just going to be my voice though. It's going to be successful negotiators. It's going to be people who successfully did negotiate for themselves. Who have been in their shoes.

So I'm, spending the next several months looking for those folks who can contribute. 

[00:36:46] Shannon Russell: What a tool again, another tool for people. And really it can be for military and outside of the military. Ideally. 

[00:36:55] Cheryl Cross: Yes, yes. And that's why, a publishing friend of mine said, [00:37:00] Oh, you shouldn't put salary negotiation for veterans.

And I thought there's a thousand salary negotiation books out there. There's a hundred courses. There is every article. I mean, from Forbes to Harvard business review, everybody's trying to teach people how to negotiate. So I think I'm going to give some love to the veterans. And maybe I'll put military spouses too, but they're, really good at it, by the way, military spouses can negotiate because they have to negotiate everything from moving timelines to getting children in school in the middle of the year you know, they're, negotiators.

They might not realize it, but they're pretty savvy at it. They can get it 

[00:37:36] Shannon Russell: done. Yeah, yes, for sure. Well, I love this. You have such a story and you're doing so much and giving so much back. I'd love to ask you just one more question, a general question about what advice would you give to anyone who is thinking about starting a second act?

[00:37:55] Cheryl Cross: Do it. You know, it's terrifying, but it's [00:38:00] so worth it. And I think I've had four second acts and I'll, throw this out there. I'm a neuro diverse woman and owning my diagnosis is. And being, I guess people call it neuro spicy and things like that, but being a level one autist and then, ADHD, I've learned a lot about myself and how different I am.

And it was a dear friend of mine on the podcast who I grew up with. who is an ADHD coach. , he's up in the Pacific Northwest. His name is Brett Green. He and I used to walk home from school together. We were one grade apart. He and I ended up working at Geffen records together. We have this really interesting like timeline.

, we were both in radio. I rounded the corner one day at Geffen records. I said, what are you doing here? He said, what are you doing here? we weren't keeping in touch through that time. But to now go on the backside, I had him on one of my episodes and he am talking about how, you know, understanding your diagnosis, understanding how you work.

[00:38:59] Cheryl Cross: So my [00:39:00] life has been a series of startovers because I have an interest based nervous system and the shock and awe of not fitting into a culture or a corporation or an industry has moved me to go completely different and polar opposite. I know what that is now. I know what sensitivities are built around that.

I've got a great health care team. I've learned so much in the last several years. But I think this is, you know, with the pandemic. And with a lot of people, a lot of women, especially who were not diagnosed as children. I'm in my fifties, so I certainly am at the older side of the age range in the workforce.

But I think it's really important to just know who you are and to give yourself grace and permission. Because ain't nobody working for that gold watch. 

Give yourself the grace and understand what it is that propels you, because purpose, which is going to replace your lack of [00:40:00] energy as you get older, hopefully is going to drive you.

Now, not everybody has an interest based nervous system like I do. My body is constantly, my brain is seeking dopamine. And that is what fuels it. So I have to have a lot of creative things around me in order to keep going. I can't have stagnation. And I realize that. So when you meet me in a year from now, Shannon, I might be doing five different other things.

Because that's just who I am. But didn't give myself permission to do that in the very beginning. I thought it was dumb. I thought it was stupid. So, just understand whoever you are. If you're neurodivergent, if you're neurotypical, If you are unknown, go get a diagnosis, get the resources, there's tons of advocates out there, figure out how you work and what propels you, so figuring it out. Not wanting to work is okay too, but if you want to go into a second career, start that side hustle, hot damn, do [00:41:00] it.

Because the worst that can do is it fails, but you'll never go to your deathbed regretting that you didn't try. 

[00:41:07] Shannon Russell: So beautifully said. You're right. Thank you. , we're not in the older generation where you picked one thing and you write it out. So really it's a precious gift to be able to jump around and try different things and see what fits.

When we look as workforce development people at our traditional offices that we spent squillions of dollars for, who's going to fill them?

[00:41:30] Cheryl Cross: You know, it's all going to be side hustle. The side hustle is going to be the main hustle soon. 

[00:41:35] Shannon Russell: Absolutely. 

[00:41:37] Cheryl Cross: Yeah. Which is why your podcast is so important. 

[00:41:41] Shannon Russell: Thank you. Yes. And yours as well. So how can everyone find you and stay in touch and listen and read? Tell me all the places to get in touch with you.

[00:41:51] Cheryl Cross: Well, I do have a website for the podcast and the book, and it is the letter X, changepodcast. com. You can [00:42:00] also find me on LinkedIn at Sheryl A, the letter A cross, because there's a lot of Sheryl crosses out there. And just connect with me. If you, you can reach me through the website, you can certainly reach me through LinkedIn.

you and I, we use LinkedIn quite a bit. That's one of my main drivers, leave comments. I'm always, I love promoting other podcasters is why I had Shannon on the show. So if you have a chance, put some comments down and like, and subscribe to her channel, share it and get the word out because.

We're all doing these fun things together, and I know how much time and energy she puts on. I want to say also, I met you at PodFest, which was in January, and I met her with a group of other people that just absolutely, we've all kept in touch, and it was such a magnificent meeting. we happen to all be doing the same thing, you know, all podcasters, right, learning our craft.

But I think that that's the other thing I would encourage people to do is my last alibi is find your [00:43:00] tribe. if you're doing something new and unusual. Look at people like I looked at Shannon. She's an established podcaster She's been doing this a lot longer than I have and she's had great advice for me I'm learning from her and even this you know every interaction we have so Reach out to those people find your people Find those people that work on the same energy level that you do and have the same love that you do and be successful together Because a rising tide lifts all ships 

[00:43:29] Shannon Russell: Yes, and you feel less alone and you feel like you do have your tribe and you have someone that you can go to and say, having issues with this or can we talk about this?

And you don't always have that in your immediate circle, your in person circle around you. , I'm looking forward to just following you and seeing all of the great things that you're doing. And I love that we can support each other along the journey.

[00:43:50] Cheryl Cross: Thank you so much. Yeah, 

[00:43:52] Shannon Russell: I'll make sure to list all of the ways to reach Cheryl in the show notes here. And I can't wait for your book. I will share the [00:44:00] podcast again when the book comes out and we'll really promote it. And thank you so much, Cheryl. You're such an inspiration. 

[00:44:06] Cheryl Cross: Well, thank you. As are you.

What an honor to be on your show today. 

[00:44:09] Shannon Russell: Have a great day. 

[00:44:10] Cheryl Cross: Thank you. 

[00:44:12] Shannon Russell: Thank you for joining us. I hope you found some gems of inspiration and some takeaways to help you on your path to Second Act Success. To view show notes from this episode, visit secondactsuccess.co. Before you go, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss a single episode. Reviews only take a few moments and they really do mean so much.

Thank you again for listening. I'm Shannon Russell and this is Second Act Success.